The interesting thing is that most Orthodox Jews do NOT REALLY BELIEVE that these punishments are real. They are very skilled in compartmentalizing the aspects of Judaism that are enjoyable and neutral, and the barbaric components such as these.
It is not possible to live a functional life while simultaneously believing all the awful consequences of hundreds of actions, non-actions, thoughts and lack of certain thoughts.
No, it's that Judaism will evolve with a Sanhedrin. Any Judaism that has a future where we are killing people for doubts (unlikely) is a sure sign we are not in the messianic era.
Sanhedrin was גולה themselves from the לשכת הגזית in order to revoke their authority to be דן דיני נפשות when the death penalty wasn't deterring. One can claim that when we refund the sanhedrin we won't necessarily reclaim that authority.
I anyway have always thought it communal - he should be cut off from the community. The fact is that certain mitzvos kick you out (eat chametz on pesach) and certain do not (talk lashon Hara during Krias hatora). Kareis is telling us ideally which should happen.
I've never encountered you here on substat but you are a thinking fellow as am I and I'm concluding that as religions involve evolution of a static idea with Judaism being the epiphany of that yet standing still we've developed into a Jewish nation, the Jewish people are what the Jews believe in with the minority being variants of observancy with all the ranges of emotions towards the nation of Israel existing since 1948 because humans got the gumption to not rely on God to protect them anymore after the Holocaust and God was put on trial in the camps by rabbis and found guilty. That's the truth of Zionism and the nation of Israel which is all of us throughout time now proving to the world all of the derangement syndromes and culminating in a Jewish era however it is framed. If we do or we don't do what the rabbis decided will be seen and we've got the safety valve of it being 5785 and the promised year supposedly of 6,000 to let this play out with as much suffering or less than the previous millenniums.
Shai Davidai had Rabbi David on yesterday that epitomized the ideation that I've been ruminating in that who really believes this stuff.
I was the mad spouse at my buddy Steve 35 years ago in Temple of aaron, a long time St Paul conservative synagogue when he said do you really believe what the husband said to the wife in this article fwiw and I didn't believe but I thought how dare you dare question the narrative instinctive Jewish reactionary thinking from a relatively secular dude, there's the Jewish communal soul illustrated.
I'm otd now but when I was a freshly married BT with my freshly BT Chabad wife she was downstairs davening and I was upstairs putting on tefillin and got emotional Midway through, she came upstairs and said what's up with you and I looked at her and said what's up with you because she looked like she'd gotten emotional we explained what happened, another communal Jewish soul moment if that's a thing which is it, and anecdotal experience several times over experienced concurrently throughout generations or proof of hashem who's been found guilty of breaking his promises
Secondary reply to the Sanhedrin suggestion, which parallels to what I previously said. As time passes and Judaism evolves separations have and do and will occur and there will be a segment that who cares in reply to the Sanhedrin and adherents who will dwell on every nano tidbit of disputable dispute because that's what Jews of that segment do and it will be therefore thus forevermore 🤫
Hillel & Shammai disagreed most do what the rabbis ruled others do what the others Rabbi ruled here we are 80 generations in an 80² more to go
The common Jews will do what the common Jews do and have always done, the eternal Jewish Nation / people continues onward while squablers will squabble, it's what the people of the book do
You have to approach Limud HaTorah without any baggage from the outside world and understand that Chazal have a Mesorah to conceptualize and transcend and render sacred by in depth study that which appears very mundane at best into the sacred as opposed to dragging it down into the contemporary Zeigeist
This point fails for one obvious reason. Have you ever heard of anyone in history ever applying a psak like this? NEVER. You are not a posek and I can pretty much guarantee you this kind of story will never happen.
You're right. This story doesn’t reflect a literal psak that’s ever been carried out. It’s fictional. But often fiction can reveal truths more powerfully than facts alone.
The goal isn’t to claim this would happen. But to explore what it feels like to live in a system where belief is everything, and doubt can cost you everything. The emotional stakes are real. The fear is real. The isolation is real.
This story just gives those feelings a voice - and a form.
I understand. I'm not taking away from that. But as you know, there are ways to communicate that without terribly misrepresenting Torah. You've done it before quite effectively
Kareis, or kares, is a form of punishment in Jewish law that is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and later Jewish writings. It typically refers to being "cut off" from one's people, which can be understood in various ways, including premature death, exclusion from the community, or punishment in the afterlife.
According to some interpretations, it means dying before one's time
, while others suggest it involves suffering in the afterlife or exclusion from the world-to-come.
The Rambam, a significant Jewish philosopher and legal scholar, has interpreted kares in different ways, suggesting it could mean punishment in the afterlife or the destruction of the soul.
The concept of kares is significant in Jewish thought as it relates to severe transgressions and their consequences.
I'm a disconnected Jew yet entirely connected in the reality of my mind knowledge and ability to process. Real life Jews tend to be like real life people, expect nothing and you'll never be disappointed.
My kids go to an orthodox School 20 minutes away from the house that they grew up in, the community delivers hamantaschen to all the Jews except me, Chabad same thing though I helped found the shul. When I go to that school people don't say hi to me though some do. Those I connect with I connect with many are midwit dullards that I have nothing in common with, which has been a realization of adulthood in that the childhood friends I grew up with haven't grown further. Enjoying my solitude as a eternal Jew, we are uncategorizable and eminently studyable for time immemorial.
My Judaism has strengthened since the 7th and goyish attacks resume which caused me to learn about goyish teachings which reinforced the elemental foundational one true faith of Judaism though I'm that husband in the story without the observance and the ability to laugh at it enjoy it and discard the religiosity that I don't abide with, the beauty of the paradox of having an atheist Jew conversing with you guys and Jewish moments occur.
I assumed it was a sub stack gem of hidden information as opposed to being fiction but the genre of fiction allows for truth to be told, as the goyim like their parables, this one tastes kosher to me and resonated as my previous reply elicited an outpouring
I keep on finding more “gems” in Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 158.
Here is a quote from the Rema:
וכן מותר היה לנסות רפואה בעבד כנעני אם תועיל (תוס' ומרדכי פא"מ ובסמ"ג)
In the “Friedman” edition, it says “akum” instead of a slave which is also explicit in the Tosafos.
Here is the quote from Tosafos:
לאפוקי לשם מורנא דלא - כפ"ה דאסור לרפאות בחנם אבל בשכר שרי משום איבה וראיה בפרק מי שאחזו (גיטין דף ע.) דרב שימי בר אשי עבדא ליה לההוא עובד כוכבים לדבר אחר ואיתסי אלמא שרי לרפאות עובד כוכבים אלא ודאי בשכר הוה ועוד י"ל דהתם נמי בחנם הוה ולהתחכם ברפואות יכול להיות מותר וכן משמ מפנישלא היה בקי ברפואות עשה כן
Tosafos, which is codified by the Rema give a blanket “hetter” to perform medical experiments on non-Jews by someone who is not well versed in medicine.
How is this different than what Mengele did in Auschwitz?
And how can anyone say that the Torah’s form of slavery is more humane than what was prevalent in those times if medical experimentation by novices is explicitly permitted?
Way too harsh and dismissive, the chip on the shoulder from goy father is Goi'tardery
This is objective analysis from a fellow Jew which you shouldn't be dismissive of, I think you're the same dude who told me not to talk back to goyfather because that's the hahareidi experience, the supplicating Jew of the trembling knees of the 17th centuries
Nowhere does it say that except in your fevered imagination. My understanding of tosfos was he was practicing like a doctor. Which is why he could do it for free. I assume you think interns are also murderers.
Apologies. Meant to write "practicing to be a doctor".
Either way, he was trying to cure him or improve his skills. He wasn't conducting grotesque medical experiments like Mengele. The comparison is only on your hateful mind
According to tosafos, he was neither a doctor nor practicing to be one.
While l agree that one wouldn't deduce from here to experiment with a cat fetus in a human uterus like the Nazis did, but one following the Rema may very well kill the Goy as I'm sure often happens to lab rats.
Is there evidence that these heretic killings were actually carried out? It's in משנה תורה but there may be little to no precedent of בתי דין carrying this out. Btw it's not just בית דין, rather anyone who carried out the killing. Sounds like more of a warning than actual practice, especially as Rambam was writing for communities in galus who had to resist Islam and philosophies which deny תורה מן השמיים. As for בית דין it seems like they were more involved with enforcing מצוות and upholding the social order than אמונות.
" Sounds like more of a warning than actual practice, especially as Rambam was writing for communities in galus who had to resist Islam and philosophies..."
It's interesting that you can write stuff like this with a straight face and then turn around and pasken "milchemes mitzvah" to draft to the IDF straight from the Rambam. If this is really the dati method of psak (take the Rambam seriously when convenient and then turn around and call it "just a warning" when inconvenient), I think it demonstrates the קלות הדעת in Torah that chareidim complain about.
So you think we really killed heretics for expressing doubts? There are no such examples I know of in the gemara or poskim. Milchama has much more of a precedent.
Expressing doubts? Of course not. And the Rambam doesn't say that either. But unapologetic, public heretics that posed a danger to society were probably dealt with when we were ידן תקיפו עלייהו the same way the מתייונים and כותים were dealt with when we had the power.
אמר להם: למה באתם? אמרו: אפשר בית שמתפללים בו עליך ועל מלכותך שלא תחרב - יַתעוּךָ גויים להחריבו? אמר להם: מי הללו? אמרו לו: כותיים הללו שעומדים לפניך! אמר להם: הרי הם מסוּרים בידיכם. מיד נקבום בעקביהם ותלאום בזנבי סוסיהם, והיו מגררין אותן על הקוצים ועל הברקנים, עד שהגיעו להר גריזים. כיון שהגיעו להר גריזים חרשוהו וזרעוהו כרשינין, כדרך שבקשו לעשות לבית אלהינו. ואותו היום עשאוהו יום טוב
Chareidim are plenty קלות הדעת when it comes to money matters. I know three very chareidi nursing homes owners who go nowhere near mechiras chometz and avoid buying chometz immediately after Pesach from Jewish stores , but happily sell their mega million nursing homes over Pesach to the janitor using a piece of paper.
And maybe respond לגופו and not bring in datim to everything? This blog is not rationalistjudaism.com and zionism is not what's being debated here. I think every community "picks and chooses". The yeshivish love Rambam but cling to the tashbetz when it comes to kollel etc.
Mind you, plenty of pictures of gerres with bloody faces and suffering property damage. It's only a question of degree, not principles. I have no doubt what would happen to Shaul Alter is some hothead were confident he could never be caught.....
I relistened again, he's content in his choice that's how me folks come to being themselves otd is a thing and I'm unaware of otd folks going back.
The 13 principles of Faith demand you have faith which is uncreatable and cannot be manifested and those who play along are this dude who walk away after realizing they're not playing along anymore. Thank God for modernity and pluralism in America and the realization of Israel taking its role amongst the Nations as an exemplary Nation on paper and in many other ways.
While looking at Shulchan Aruch 158, I found another gem.
Genocide in Halacha is not limited to Amalek and the seven nations.
As can be seen in Bais Yosef, Bach, and Shach in 158: 1, EVEN THE BEST non-Jews should be murdered in a time or war. This implies not only a "Milchemmes Mitzva" but also a "Milchemes Reshus."
Bais Yosef:
והא דאמרינן במ"ס [בפט"ו] טוב שבעכו"ם הרוג היינו בשעת מלחמה וכן נראה מדברי הרמב"ם בפרק ד' מהלכות רוצח (ועיי' בח"מ סי' תכ"ה)
Bach:
ומ"ש הרמב"ם העכו"ם שאין בינינו ובינם מלחמה ולא כתב סתם העכו"ם נראה שכוונתו ליישב מה שהקשו התוס' שם על הא דתניא ולא מורידין דהא במסכת סופרים תניא כשר שבעכו"ם הרוג וי"ל דבירושלמי דקידושין מפרש דהיינו בשעת מלחמה וכו' עד כאן לשונו וליישב זה נתכוון גם הרמב"ם
Shach:
שאין כו' מלחמה. אבל בשעת המלחמה היו הורגין אותן בידים דאמרינן טוב שבעובדי כוכבים כו' כ"פ הב"ח והביא התוס' שכ"כ וכ"כ ב"י:
It's not. When it says we can kill the best of the goyim, it means even those whose lives we would think should be worth savings. Not innocent civilians who always are given a choice of adopting the 7.
By the way, I am citing Sofrim 15:10 based on todafos and the poskim. Goyfather actually makes a good case based on the Yerushalmi kiddushin 4:11 that the original version promoted the killing even during peacetime.
Beyond parody. I don't know why you have this fever dream of Orthodox Jews being just like Islamic terrorists. It's insane not to realize that texts from back then were dealing with a totally different culture.
This is what I wrote to Simon Furst who had a similar take:
The core message of this story is that authentic Orthodox Judaism, as defined by its foundational texts, does advocate for these laws—it’s just that they are currently unenforceable due to practical and political constraints. If the Orthodox theocracy that Jews pray for thrice daily were ever established, it would strictly follow the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch, mandating executions for thought crimes and other so-called 'heinous' infractions
The fact that such a system is unlikely—whether because prayer is ineffective, because secular or less religious factions would resist, or even because many Orthodox Jews themselves do not actively seek such a regime—does not change the underlying ideology. These laws are not merely theoretical; they represent the legal and moral framework that traditional Judaism upholds, even if they remain dormant due to external limitations.
Dismissing them as irrelevant or outdated overlooks the fact that these laws are no less part of Judaism than the laws of baking Matzah or making Kiddush, and anyone who denies this would actually be subject to the punishments outlined in the story.
Maybe your watered-down version of Judaism will not be favored in messianic times.
Secondly, I don't think the "pashtus haposkim" is like the Chazon Ish. Why is that your default?
More importantly, if (perish the thought) Israel would be controlled by the Orthodox and a theocracy would be in place one could argue that the ancient laws apply even according to Chazon Ish as that may be similar to temple times.
The interesting thing is that most Orthodox Jews do NOT REALLY BELIEVE that these punishments are real. They are very skilled in compartmentalizing the aspects of Judaism that are enjoyable and neutral, and the barbaric components such as these.
It is not possible to live a functional life while simultaneously believing all the awful consequences of hundreds of actions, non-actions, thoughts and lack of certain thoughts.
It’s something I often say: in reality, everyone picks and chooses. I just happen to choose fewer things than most.
The thing is that they will not admit that they don't really believe parts of Judaism.
No, it's that Judaism will evolve with a Sanhedrin. Any Judaism that has a future where we are killing people for doubts (unlikely) is a sure sign we are not in the messianic era.
You are not helping Judaism with that attitude. You are just making a joke out of it.
Will you do away with all of capital and corporeal punishment?
Are you aware of how much of the written and oral law you are doing away with?
What about Karies for tens and tens of sins that apply nowadays. Do you believe in that?
Do you think it is moral to murder the children of someone who brushed his teeth on shabbos?
Sanhedrin was גולה themselves from the לשכת הגזית in order to revoke their authority to be דן דיני נפשות when the death penalty wasn't deterring. One can claim that when we refund the sanhedrin we won't necessarily reclaim that authority.
Kareis is God's plan.
I anyway have always thought it communal - he should be cut off from the community. The fact is that certain mitzvos kick you out (eat chametz on pesach) and certain do not (talk lashon Hara during Krias hatora). Kareis is telling us ideally which should happen.
Typical apologetic non-answer.
I've never encountered you here on substat but you are a thinking fellow as am I and I'm concluding that as religions involve evolution of a static idea with Judaism being the epiphany of that yet standing still we've developed into a Jewish nation, the Jewish people are what the Jews believe in with the minority being variants of observancy with all the ranges of emotions towards the nation of Israel existing since 1948 because humans got the gumption to not rely on God to protect them anymore after the Holocaust and God was put on trial in the camps by rabbis and found guilty. That's the truth of Zionism and the nation of Israel which is all of us throughout time now proving to the world all of the derangement syndromes and culminating in a Jewish era however it is framed. If we do or we don't do what the rabbis decided will be seen and we've got the safety valve of it being 5785 and the promised year supposedly of 6,000 to let this play out with as much suffering or less than the previous millenniums.
Shai Davidai had Rabbi David on yesterday that epitomized the ideation that I've been ruminating in that who really believes this stuff.
I was the mad spouse at my buddy Steve 35 years ago in Temple of aaron, a long time St Paul conservative synagogue when he said do you really believe what the husband said to the wife in this article fwiw and I didn't believe but I thought how dare you dare question the narrative instinctive Jewish reactionary thinking from a relatively secular dude, there's the Jewish communal soul illustrated.
I'm otd now but when I was a freshly married BT with my freshly BT Chabad wife she was downstairs davening and I was upstairs putting on tefillin and got emotional Midway through, she came upstairs and said what's up with you and I looked at her and said what's up with you because she looked like she'd gotten emotional we explained what happened, another communal Jewish soul moment if that's a thing which is it, and anecdotal experience several times over experienced concurrently throughout generations or proof of hashem who's been found guilty of breaking his promises
Hope that comes through as intended
Secondary reply to the Sanhedrin suggestion, which parallels to what I previously said. As time passes and Judaism evolves separations have and do and will occur and there will be a segment that who cares in reply to the Sanhedrin and adherents who will dwell on every nano tidbit of disputable dispute because that's what Jews of that segment do and it will be therefore thus forevermore 🤫
Hillel & Shammai disagreed most do what the rabbis ruled others do what the others Rabbi ruled here we are 80 generations in an 80² more to go
The common Jews will do what the common Jews do and have always done, the eternal Jewish Nation / people continues onward while squablers will squabble, it's what the people of the book do
Rabbi Akiva of 'once every 70 years' would argue with you there.
You have to approach Limud HaTorah without any baggage from the outside world and understand that Chazal have a Mesorah to conceptualize and transcend and render sacred by in depth study that which appears very mundane at best into the sacred as opposed to dragging it down into the contemporary Zeigeist
Well written so sad :/
This point fails for one obvious reason. Have you ever heard of anyone in history ever applying a psak like this? NEVER. You are not a posek and I can pretty much guarantee you this kind of story will never happen.
You're right. This story doesn’t reflect a literal psak that’s ever been carried out. It’s fictional. But often fiction can reveal truths more powerfully than facts alone.
The goal isn’t to claim this would happen. But to explore what it feels like to live in a system where belief is everything, and doubt can cost you everything. The emotional stakes are real. The fear is real. The isolation is real.
This story just gives those feelings a voice - and a form.
I understand. I'm not taking away from that. But as you know, there are ways to communicate that without terribly misrepresenting Torah. You've done it before quite effectively
Something very similar happens if you believe in kareis.
This concept?
Kareis, or kares, is a form of punishment in Jewish law that is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and later Jewish writings. It typically refers to being "cut off" from one's people, which can be understood in various ways, including premature death, exclusion from the community, or punishment in the afterlife.
According to some interpretations, it means dying before one's time
, while others suggest it involves suffering in the afterlife or exclusion from the world-to-come.
The Rambam, a significant Jewish philosopher and legal scholar, has interpreted kares in different ways, suggesting it could mean punishment in the afterlife or the destruction of the soul.
The concept of kares is significant in Jewish thought as it relates to severe transgressions and their consequences.
I'm a disconnected Jew yet entirely connected in the reality of my mind knowledge and ability to process. Real life Jews tend to be like real life people, expect nothing and you'll never be disappointed.
My kids go to an orthodox School 20 minutes away from the house that they grew up in, the community delivers hamantaschen to all the Jews except me, Chabad same thing though I helped found the shul. When I go to that school people don't say hi to me though some do. Those I connect with I connect with many are midwit dullards that I have nothing in common with, which has been a realization of adulthood in that the childhood friends I grew up with haven't grown further. Enjoying my solitude as a eternal Jew, we are uncategorizable and eminently studyable for time immemorial.
My Judaism has strengthened since the 7th and goyish attacks resume which caused me to learn about goyish teachings which reinforced the elemental foundational one true faith of Judaism though I'm that husband in the story without the observance and the ability to laugh at it enjoy it and discard the religiosity that I don't abide with, the beauty of the paradox of having an atheist Jew conversing with you guys and Jewish moments occur.
I don't identify as atheist Jew but the conversation mentioned previously was labeled as atheist Jew Converses with Rabbi David
Believer in the people of Israel believer in the nation of the Jews
An undefinable Jew....
Shul not school my voice transcription overrides my dictionary entries and autocorrects, welcome to 5785. Wish sub stack had an edit button
I assumed it was a sub stack gem of hidden information as opposed to being fiction but the genre of fiction allows for truth to be told, as the goyim like their parables, this one tastes kosher to me and resonated as my previous reply elicited an outpouring
I keep on finding more “gems” in Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 158.
Here is a quote from the Rema:
וכן מותר היה לנסות רפואה בעבד כנעני אם תועיל (תוס' ומרדכי פא"מ ובסמ"ג)
In the “Friedman” edition, it says “akum” instead of a slave which is also explicit in the Tosafos.
Here is the quote from Tosafos:
לאפוקי לשם מורנא דלא - כפ"ה דאסור לרפאות בחנם אבל בשכר שרי משום איבה וראיה בפרק מי שאחזו (גיטין דף ע.) דרב שימי בר אשי עבדא ליה לההוא עובד כוכבים לדבר אחר ואיתסי אלמא שרי לרפאות עובד כוכבים אלא ודאי בשכר הוה ועוד י"ל דהתם נמי בחנם הוה ולהתחכם ברפואות יכול להיות מותר וכן משמ מפנישלא היה בקי ברפואות עשה כן
Tosafos, which is codified by the Rema give a blanket “hetter” to perform medical experiments on non-Jews by someone who is not well versed in medicine.
How is this different than what Mengele did in Auschwitz?
And how can anyone say that the Torah’s form of slavery is more humane than what was prevalent in those times if medical experimentation by novices is explicitly permitted?
Its extremely different. Closer to clinical trials than mengele. You really do read Talmud like Goyfather.
Way too harsh and dismissive, the chip on the shoulder from goy father is Goi'tardery
This is objective analysis from a fellow Jew which you shouldn't be dismissive of, I think you're the same dude who told me not to talk back to goyfather because that's the hahareidi experience, the supplicating Jew of the trembling knees of the 17th centuries
I assumed which I should not have unclear on the j Factor
What the heck?
Read tosafos, the amora that did this was not knowledgeable in medicine.
It might've killed the guy!
Nowhere does it say that except in your fevered imagination. My understanding of tosfos was he was practicing like a doctor. Which is why he could do it for free. I assume you think interns are also murderers.
Now go back to your Fuentes Jew hate chats.
I feel like I'm in Yeshiva again!
Tosfafos says:
וכן משמע מפני שלא היה בקי ברפואות עשה כן
He didn't know "refuos" = he didn't know medicine.
It does not say:
מפני שלא היה בקי ברפואה זו
which would imply that he was a doctor that just wasn't familiar with this רפואה
Additionally, see Meiri there who understands Tosafos similar that this was the mother of the amora who was also "not a baki in curing"
וממה שאמרו בפרק קורדיקוס אימיה דרב שימי עבדא ליה לההוא גוי ואתסי ולא רצת לעשות לישראל מפני שעדין לא היתה בקיאה באותה מלאכה
In any event, even a doctor trying an experimental cure on humans with no idea of its side effects is also crazy.
That's why we use lab rats not non-Jews.
And this has nothing to do with interns who use the same drugs and cures as the professionals do.
Apologies. Meant to write "practicing to be a doctor".
Either way, he was trying to cure him or improve his skills. He wasn't conducting grotesque medical experiments like Mengele. The comparison is only on your hateful mind
No.
According to tosafos, he was neither a doctor nor practicing to be one.
While l agree that one wouldn't deduce from here to experiment with a cat fetus in a human uterus like the Nazis did, but one following the Rema may very well kill the Goy as I'm sure often happens to lab rats.
I'll be honest, I never heard of Fuentes, and I don't have anything against any Jews.
I actually love them. (I'm even drawn to their atheists, Sam Harris and Robert Sapolsky are my favorites.)
It's just the ideas; the laws and the mindset that can be very harmful if taken seriously.
Did you study in yeshiva?
I somehow absorbed that you were Jewish now perplexed
Yes. Jewish, Yeshivah, kollel.
Is there evidence that these heretic killings were actually carried out? It's in משנה תורה but there may be little to no precedent of בתי דין carrying this out. Btw it's not just בית דין, rather anyone who carried out the killing. Sounds like more of a warning than actual practice, especially as Rambam was writing for communities in galus who had to resist Islam and philosophies which deny תורה מן השמיים. As for בית דין it seems like they were more involved with enforcing מצוות and upholding the social order than אמונות.
" Sounds like more of a warning than actual practice, especially as Rambam was writing for communities in galus who had to resist Islam and philosophies..."
It's interesting that you can write stuff like this with a straight face and then turn around and pasken "milchemes mitzvah" to draft to the IDF straight from the Rambam. If this is really the dati method of psak (take the Rambam seriously when convenient and then turn around and call it "just a warning" when inconvenient), I think it demonstrates the קלות הדעת in Torah that chareidim complain about.
So you think we really killed heretics for expressing doubts? There are no such examples I know of in the gemara or poskim. Milchama has much more of a precedent.
Expressing doubts? Of course not. And the Rambam doesn't say that either. But unapologetic, public heretics that posed a danger to society were probably dealt with when we were ידן תקיפו עלייהו the same way the מתייונים and כותים were dealt with when we had the power.
we killed the כותים as well? The מתייונים arent the best example because they were shmading us and were pretty much מוסרים taking the side of אנטיוכוס
יומא סט
אמר להם: למה באתם? אמרו: אפשר בית שמתפללים בו עליך ועל מלכותך שלא תחרב - יַתעוּךָ גויים להחריבו? אמר להם: מי הללו? אמרו לו: כותיים הללו שעומדים לפניך! אמר להם: הרי הם מסוּרים בידיכם. מיד נקבום בעקביהם ותלאום בזנבי סוסיהם, והיו מגררין אותן על הקוצים ועל הברקנים, עד שהגיעו להר גריזים. כיון שהגיעו להר גריזים חרשוהו וזרעוהו כרשינין, כדרך שבקשו לעשות לבית אלהינו. ואותו היום עשאוהו יום טוב
Chareidim are plenty קלות הדעת when it comes to money matters. I know three very chareidi nursing homes owners who go nowhere near mechiras chometz and avoid buying chometz immediately after Pesach from Jewish stores , but happily sell their mega million nursing homes over Pesach to the janitor using a piece of paper.
Tipshim shb'tipshim.
And maybe respond לגופו and not bring in datim to everything? This blog is not rationalistjudaism.com and zionism is not what's being debated here. I think every community "picks and chooses". The yeshivish love Rambam but cling to the tashbetz when it comes to kollel etc.
Never worked out what they 'cling to' when they schedule minyonim starting just before noon either in their minyan factories.
Is this really following the literal hilchos apikoros?
I'm not much of a talmid, I haven't read YD, but in the context of a husband telling his wife this and she alone providing עדות to a beis din ...
I'm not sure this would actually follow. I could be wrong ofc, but can someone explain how this would be the psak given these conditions?
It wouldn't. That's why it's ridiculous
Mind you, plenty of pictures of gerres with bloody faces and suffering property damage. It's only a question of degree, not principles. I have no doubt what would happen to Shaul Alter is some hothead were confident he could never be caught.....
But that's not related to the Torah itself. Just a modern innovation of chasidut. This blog post was discussing the Torah itself
No. The hotheads believe they are very much following the 'torah's wishes.
A gerrer told me arguing with the Rebbe is like arguing with Moshe and we know what happened to Korach. These people are serious. Deadly serious.
My response;
https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/the-last-supper?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
Assuming that HaShem spoke to any Navi in the same way that HaShem spoke to Moshe Rabbeinu is clearly
wrong If he said that he doubts that HaShem spoke at all to the Neviim that is also very problematic
I relistened again, he's content in his choice that's how me folks come to being themselves otd is a thing and I'm unaware of otd folks going back.
The 13 principles of Faith demand you have faith which is uncreatable and cannot be manifested and those who play along are this dude who walk away after realizing they're not playing along anymore. Thank God for modernity and pluralism in America and the realization of Israel taking its role amongst the Nations as an exemplary Nation on paper and in many other ways.
Am Yisrael Chai 👆
While looking at Shulchan Aruch 158, I found another gem.
Genocide in Halacha is not limited to Amalek and the seven nations.
As can be seen in Bais Yosef, Bach, and Shach in 158: 1, EVEN THE BEST non-Jews should be murdered in a time or war. This implies not only a "Milchemmes Mitzva" but also a "Milchemes Reshus."
Bais Yosef:
והא דאמרינן במ"ס [בפט"ו] טוב שבעכו"ם הרוג היינו בשעת מלחמה וכן נראה מדברי הרמב"ם בפרק ד' מהלכות רוצח (ועיי' בח"מ סי' תכ"ה)
Bach:
ומ"ש הרמב"ם העכו"ם שאין בינינו ובינם מלחמה ולא כתב סתם העכו"ם נראה שכוונתו ליישב מה שהקשו התוס' שם על הא דתניא ולא מורידין דהא במסכת סופרים תניא כשר שבעכו"ם הרוג וי"ל דבירושלמי דקידושין מפרש דהיינו בשעת מלחמה וכו' עד כאן לשונו וליישב זה נתכוון גם הרמב"ם
Shach:
שאין כו' מלחמה. אבל בשעת המלחמה היו הורגין אותן בידים דאמרינן טוב שבעובדי כוכבים כו' כ"פ הב"ח והביא התוס' שכ"כ וכ"כ ב"י:
Again, its a war. We kill the other side. Stupid.
And what about a "Mlchemes Reshus" for more "lebensraum"?
Is that an excuse to kill innocent people?
This is referring to the BEST of the non Jews= good innocent civilians.
That's your translation. More like it means doctors.
This response is misplaced. You meant it for my other comment. See the above Poskim inside who are talking about any Goyim.
It's not. When it says we can kill the best of the goyim, it means even those whose lives we would think should be worth savings. Not innocent civilians who always are given a choice of adopting the 7.
You are right on that one.
By the way, I am citing Sofrim 15:10 based on todafos and the poskim. Goyfather actually makes a good case based on the Yerushalmi kiddushin 4:11 that the original version promoted the killing even during peacetime.
Beyond parody. I don't know why you have this fever dream of Orthodox Jews being just like Islamic terrorists. It's insane not to realize that texts from back then were dealing with a totally different culture.
This is what I wrote to Simon Furst who had a similar take:
The core message of this story is that authentic Orthodox Judaism, as defined by its foundational texts, does advocate for these laws—it’s just that they are currently unenforceable due to practical and political constraints. If the Orthodox theocracy that Jews pray for thrice daily were ever established, it would strictly follow the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch, mandating executions for thought crimes and other so-called 'heinous' infractions
The fact that such a system is unlikely—whether because prayer is ineffective, because secular or less religious factions would resist, or even because many Orthodox Jews themselves do not actively seek such a regime—does not change the underlying ideology. These laws are not merely theoretical; they represent the legal and moral framework that traditional Judaism upholds, even if they remain dormant due to external limitations.
Dismissing them as irrelevant or outdated overlooks the fact that these laws are no less part of Judaism than the laws of baking Matzah or making Kiddush, and anyone who denies this would actually be subject to the punishments outlined in the story.
I disagree. We would go with the chazon ish or other heterim to avoid such an outcome.
Why?
Is it because it makes you uncomfortable?
Maybe your watered-down version of Judaism will not be favored in messianic times.
Secondly, I don't think the "pashtus haposkim" is like the Chazon Ish. Why is that your default?
More importantly, if (perish the thought) Israel would be controlled by the Orthodox and a theocracy would be in place one could argue that the ancient laws apply even according to Chazon Ish as that may be similar to temple times.