This is the problem with slavish devotion to Orthodoxy. We keep Shabbos because it’s supposed to bring a Jew closer to Hashem, it’s a personal relationship. Facilitated communally sure but personal nonetheless. A Jew who doesn’t isn’t loved by God any less!
This is what Rav Kook meant when he wrote that morality doesn’t come from Halacha.
💔my heart breaks for those whose focus causes them to think they can ‘judge’. And decide that a friend is defined by ‘observing’ a particular mitzvah. Did Rebbe Meir abandon Elisha his Rebbe ? And believe me it was not because there was more to learn. Whichever path you choose to follow you’re welcome at my table.
It’s easy for people to talk like this when they haven’t been faced with the situation and haven’t thought it through. In reality there is no simple answer for a couple like the one under discussion. Most likely one of them will have to seriously do or not do or allow things that very much go against their grain, their deepest values. If they want to stay together, and there’s every reason to think staying together is the ideal, for the sake of the children if for no other reason. Despite what the gossipers who haven’t given it a moment’s thought may say. In my case I understood that the only way to make things work was if I gave up on being openly OTD, even in the confines of my own home. I was and am highly motivated, because I love my husband and my children and I have nothing else in my life that I care about. Atheism has no dictates, I can keep shabbos if I want to. Some have said if my family couldn’t tolerate me being open it means they don’t love me for me. I think it’s more complicated than that. And I don’t even care if they love me in a qualified fashion. It’s still love, better than anything the cruel outside world has to offer me. Otoh I have known couples where it’s the frum spouse that gives in and accepts the OTD spouse being open about it. And of course there are cases where none of this is possible and divorce is the only answer. Often a bitter answer with an outside party deciding on the compromises and lawyers and all sorts of nastiness.
There are couples who marry when one spouse is religious and the other is not.It is not for us to judge.They have to work it out.They may love each other. Leave them be.Some live religious lives. I'm not saying it's recommended. There are all kinds of situations in life.
Not frum friends, no. Non frum friends, yes. Except I don’t have non frum friends that I see in person. Because it’s inconvenient. Not keeping shabbos is also inconvenient for me. As for “intermarried” couples, of course I don’t judge them. But if someone asked my opinion, I’d advise against it. It’s one thing if one spouse goes OTD and there are children involved, it makes sense to try and work it out. But to knowingly bring these problems upon yourself? Likely a bad idea for the vast majority of couples.
Before I write my thoughts, I want to make it very clear that this is not a personal attack on you. I assume you really are a truly good person, and anyone who acts towards you with contempt is judging without a fuller picture.
That out of the way, while I think your fear is grounded, are they wrong for their hurtful moral framing? I can say this in different ways, but let's start here: If Judaism is true, if you are wrong, and you publicly desecrate Shabbos in front of people who knew you, that weakens the system. Weakening the system, if the system is true, is actually and morally *bad* for people. Bad for the well-being of other people, which means you are - inadvertently - being a bad person. "By all accounts, I’m a good person." Not true. By a Jewish account, you are hurting people. Your wife, your kids - you love them, but you aren't allowing them to reach their potential. You live in a community, with other people, and they can be hurt by your false ideology. Acceptance within a system would lead to more issues, not less. To be clear yet again, this does not mean you should lose your family and friends, but only if they can handle their Judaism with you around. Their eternal relationship with God and their covenant is more important than your feelings. If your feelings may be hurt, but Judaism will be weakened, it isn't *good* to allow you to just have your opinions and not bear this consequence; we need to keep more people safe.
How does a Jewish community deal with atheists? It's a strong question. There should be infrastructure where people who are confident in their positions can talk to you (I think myself, Ash, shulman and others here do have strong opinions despite understanding atheism pretty well - I'd recommend emailing shulman or Ash) but meanwhile, it shouldn't be made mainstream, that would be bad.
I have to run, but I just wanted to share that (painful) idea which is sorely missing in this conversation that popped into my head while reading this.
I just read @dg's comments on that article you linked; that's basically my point. I would agree that with a child it's different, but if Judaism means anything to someone, this is not a trivial matter.
While tolerance is commendable, Shabbos separates us from others unlike us- more than kashrus.
The שקולה כגגד כל המצוות is a fairly reasonable statement of חז״ל. (In the confines of orthodox perspectives)
My community started off with hundreds of families of baalay tshuva with variable Shabbos observance. Tolerance was a huge draw for people moving here.
Nonetheless, as Shabbos observance was being educated to them, not all could accept it and some moved away.
The point: it is uncomfortable to be in a shomer Shabbos environment when one ceases to do so, especially if it is secondary to rejection.
Before the stoning of the wicked commences, does the Shabbos Transgressor get his choice of the most stringent kashrut hashgacha. as an essential element of his last meal? But if it were me on the day I draw my last breath, I would ask for a freshly grilled cheeseburger so that I may sample a few morsels of pleasure in עולם הזה.
This is another example where thankfully, they don't really believe or live by the religion.
According to Halacha a shabbos desecrator is worse than a murderer. (Shabbos is punishable with stoning which is halachically worse than decapitation, the punishment for murder).
But as NO ONE really believes this, if the relationship is healthy, even Lakewooders will stay married to a shabbos desecrator.
Any the violator has to be warned within what is calculated as 3 seconds before the act.( תוך כדי דיבור )
Then we can evaluate his understanding and hpw correct was the warning.
That is why the Talmud says that a Beit Din that kills once in 70 years is a wicked Beit Din. These laws are ton impress upon the Jew to observe these laes of Shabbat.
This sucks. I personally don't think otd itcs go to gehenim for the simple reason they are living in hell in this world
This is the problem with slavish devotion to Orthodoxy. We keep Shabbos because it’s supposed to bring a Jew closer to Hashem, it’s a personal relationship. Facilitated communally sure but personal nonetheless. A Jew who doesn’t isn’t loved by God any less!
This is what Rav Kook meant when he wrote that morality doesn’t come from Halacha.
I am sorry.
It is not fair
Thank you for writing this. I relate to every detail
💔my heart breaks for those whose focus causes them to think they can ‘judge’. And decide that a friend is defined by ‘observing’ a particular mitzvah. Did Rebbe Meir abandon Elisha his Rebbe ? And believe me it was not because there was more to learn. Whichever path you choose to follow you’re welcome at my table.
It’s easy for people to talk like this when they haven’t been faced with the situation and haven’t thought it through. In reality there is no simple answer for a couple like the one under discussion. Most likely one of them will have to seriously do or not do or allow things that very much go against their grain, their deepest values. If they want to stay together, and there’s every reason to think staying together is the ideal, for the sake of the children if for no other reason. Despite what the gossipers who haven’t given it a moment’s thought may say. In my case I understood that the only way to make things work was if I gave up on being openly OTD, even in the confines of my own home. I was and am highly motivated, because I love my husband and my children and I have nothing else in my life that I care about. Atheism has no dictates, I can keep shabbos if I want to. Some have said if my family couldn’t tolerate me being open it means they don’t love me for me. I think it’s more complicated than that. And I don’t even care if they love me in a qualified fashion. It’s still love, better than anything the cruel outside world has to offer me. Otoh I have known couples where it’s the frum spouse that gives in and accepts the OTD spouse being open about it. And of course there are cases where none of this is possible and divorce is the only answer. Often a bitter answer with an outside party deciding on the compromises and lawyers and all sorts of nastiness.
There are couples who marry when one spouse is religious and the other is not.It is not for us to judge.They have to work it out.They may love each other. Leave them be.Some live religious lives. I'm not saying it's recommended. There are all kinds of situations in life.
By the way why would you desecrate Shabbat in front of people who are your friends?
Not frum friends, no. Non frum friends, yes. Except I don’t have non frum friends that I see in person. Because it’s inconvenient. Not keeping shabbos is also inconvenient for me. As for “intermarried” couples, of course I don’t judge them. But if someone asked my opinion, I’d advise against it. It’s one thing if one spouse goes OTD and there are children involved, it makes sense to try and work it out. But to knowingly bring these problems upon yourself? Likely a bad idea for the vast majority of couples.
Before I write my thoughts, I want to make it very clear that this is not a personal attack on you. I assume you really are a truly good person, and anyone who acts towards you with contempt is judging without a fuller picture.
That out of the way, while I think your fear is grounded, are they wrong for their hurtful moral framing? I can say this in different ways, but let's start here: If Judaism is true, if you are wrong, and you publicly desecrate Shabbos in front of people who knew you, that weakens the system. Weakening the system, if the system is true, is actually and morally *bad* for people. Bad for the well-being of other people, which means you are - inadvertently - being a bad person. "By all accounts, I’m a good person." Not true. By a Jewish account, you are hurting people. Your wife, your kids - you love them, but you aren't allowing them to reach their potential. You live in a community, with other people, and they can be hurt by your false ideology. Acceptance within a system would lead to more issues, not less. To be clear yet again, this does not mean you should lose your family and friends, but only if they can handle their Judaism with you around. Their eternal relationship with God and their covenant is more important than your feelings. If your feelings may be hurt, but Judaism will be weakened, it isn't *good* to allow you to just have your opinions and not bear this consequence; we need to keep more people safe.
How does a Jewish community deal with atheists? It's a strong question. There should be infrastructure where people who are confident in their positions can talk to you (I think myself, Ash, shulman and others here do have strong opinions despite understanding atheism pretty well - I'd recommend emailing shulman or Ash) but meanwhile, it shouldn't be made mainstream, that would be bad.
I have to run, but I just wanted to share that (painful) idea which is sorely missing in this conversation that popped into my head while reading this.
Relevant post
https://lakewoodfromafar.substack.com/p/the-bonds-that-matter-most
I just read @dg's comments on that article you linked; that's basically my point. I would agree that with a child it's different, but if Judaism means anything to someone, this is not a trivial matter.
Kind of the same point. I'll have to respond in more depth after shabbos.
While tolerance is commendable, Shabbos separates us from others unlike us- more than kashrus.
The שקולה כגגד כל המצוות is a fairly reasonable statement of חז״ל. (In the confines of orthodox perspectives)
My community started off with hundreds of families of baalay tshuva with variable Shabbos observance. Tolerance was a huge draw for people moving here.
Nonetheless, as Shabbos observance was being educated to them, not all could accept it and some moved away.
The point: it is uncomfortable to be in a shomer Shabbos environment when one ceases to do so, especially if it is secondary to rejection.
"By all accounts, I’m a good person."
By most accounts
hmmm, it’s surprising that ChatGPT didn’t catch that.
And by other accounts, I mean those that really matter, he should be stoned.
Before the stoning of the wicked commences, does the Shabbos Transgressor get his choice of the most stringent kashrut hashgacha. as an essential element of his last meal? But if it were me on the day I draw my last breath, I would ask for a freshly grilled cheeseburger so that I may sample a few morsels of pleasure in עולם הזה.
This is so painful.
This is another example where thankfully, they don't really believe or live by the religion.
According to Halacha a shabbos desecrator is worse than a murderer. (Shabbos is punishable with stoning which is halachically worse than decapitation, the punishment for murder).
But as NO ONE really believes this, if the relationship is healthy, even Lakewooders will stay married to a shabbos desecrator.
Anyone who knows Halacha knows the punishment severity's does not match crime severity. This is a mefurash gemara
Wrong
הנסקלין אין נקברין עם הנחנקין,
אלא היו שתי קברות מתוקנות לבית דין,
אחת לנסקלין ולנשרפין, ואחת לנהרגין ולנחנקין.
רש״י שם, ד״ה "שתי קברות מתוקנות":
> מפני שהנסקל והנשרף רשעם מרובה יותר,
לפיכך אין קוברין אותן עם הנהרג והנחנק.
> As it was taught [in a baraita]:
Those who were stoned are not buried together with those who were strangled.
Rather, two burial grounds were prepared for the court:
one for those executed by stoning and burning,
and one for those executed by decapitation and strangulation.
Rashi (s.v. “Two burial grounds were prepared”):
> Because one who is stoned or burned is more wicked,
therefore they are not buried together with one who was decapitated or strangled.
See also shulchan aruch y.d. 119:5 with commentaries. And the laws of "hakal hakal techilah" in which severity is measured by the punishment.
Any the violator has to be warned within what is calculated as 3 seconds before the act.( תוך כדי דיבור )
Then we can evaluate his understanding and hpw correct was the warning.
That is why the Talmud says that a Beit Din that kills once in 70 years is a wicked Beit Din. These laws are ton impress upon the Jew to observe these laes of Shabbat.
Super relatable :(((